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Comedian Jamal Newman sits down with podcast hosts Puss and Kooch to discuss his improv background, how he came up with the idea for all-black improv group Lena Dunham, and which performers are setting comedy trends in DC.
Jamal Newman on Heavy Flo with Puss and Kooch
The following interview has been edited for length and clarity. To hear everything Jamal has to say, listen to his podcast episode.
The origin story of Lena Dunham
It’s become a thing for me for about two years now to go to LA for my birthday. I go and see improv shows at UCB.
The first time I went was just to see White Women. And then I thought I wasn’t going to get to see them because I went to the UCB Sunset training center, and they were sold out for their show on Sunday. I thought I’d just missed my opportunity to see White Women after I’d flown across the country. And then the black woman sitting at the front was like, “Oh no, you didn’t. You can see them on Tuesday.” And I said, “What’s happening Tuesday?” And she said, “Uuuh…Obama’s last week in office.” This was the same time Trump was being inaugurated. The woman at UCB told me White Women was having a show with the other black troops on Tuesday. So I bought those tickets.
Can you tell us what it was like going to see these groups on that Tuesday night show?
First of all, when you walk into a show that’s all black teams, it’s very much like a club environment. The music they’re playing before the show is different. It’s not Rage Against the Machine or anything like that. The vibe is really different.
I’d never seen a show where every team was all black improvisers. And it wasn’t like, “Oh, this person’s also on this team, and this person is also on that team.” They all had their own teams. So I saw Arcade Currency, Obama’s Other Daughters. I saw Ego Nwodim when she was there. And then White Women closed out the show. That’s where Lena Dunham started because I was like, “Why is this not in DC?”
Had you ever seen an all-black team perform?
Prior to that, no. I hadn’t seen an all-black improv team, let alone an all-black male improv team. They weren’t wearing khakis and plaid shirts. So I realized you could be yourself and still perform.
So seeing this show led to the idea of you coming back and doing this in DC?
Part of it was that I wondered, “Why don’t we have this in DC?” I was almost waiting for someone else to make this happen. And then I realized I could ask my people that I knew. I didn’t have to wait for someone else to do it. I just was like, “Who are the five black people that I know?” And they were all performers, so I just asked them.
I find myself asking, “Why doesn’t DC do this or do that?” a lot. And I think there’s just this lack of initiative to start things.
I think people are waiting for someone else to give them permission to do it instead of just going and doing it if they have an idea. You have the space now. There are three places you can perform. When I was coming up, there was only one place you could perform. So you have the space to go do something in the city with any idea you have. So don’t wait for someone else to give you permission. Just go do it. But I think people are hesitant to just take charge and do it.
Why do you think that is?
Everyone wants to be nice and doesn’t want to ruffle anyone’s feathers, I guess.
How did you know people were going to show up for this show?
I didn’t. But I knew people would be there for Palooza. I thought about where this show could debut where it would probably get accepted, guaranteed. And that was Palooza because that’s where you do the experimental shows. So I just sat on the idea until it was time to submit. So it started as a Palooza idea. I thought it would be a one-off.
When you did it at Palooza, what was the idea there? How’d you come up with how you were going to do the show?
When I saw White Women, they asked the audience to give the group a word they thought the group wouldn’t know the definition of. Then they took that word and started the show.
So some very brazen white guy was like, “Consternation.”
Then Carl Tart said, “Consternation, get your ass in here!” and immediately threw it back at him and was like, “I know this word.”
So I thought about what could play on Lena Dunham and thought of a text message from your black friend—who wasn’t one of us, obviously. I also wanted to use something that would get a silent pause from the audience for a second to see who was going to be willing to share the details about their black friend.
How was it when you first did that show? How do you feel out there and then after?
I loved it. I thought it went as well as it could have gone. I was just happy we all got a chance to play together and wondered why it had never happened sooner. It had happened somewhat on a micro level before, but it wasn’t a troupe.
Jeff Hughes used to run a bunch of shows at DCAC. A long time ago, he brought Seth Gilliam, from The Walking Dead and The Wire, in for a show. It was mostly black people who were in the show, and there was a set where it was just all black people performing with Seth Gilliam. But it didn’t stick in my mind. I guess I thought of it as a one-time thing because a celebrity was there.
I think another thing about the show was our natural chemistry. We don’t rehearse, but we have a very natural chemistry that lets us perform and share bonds. So it was good to feel that for the first time on a team.
You hadn’t felt that previously?
Naturally, with that much chemistry, no, I hadn’t felt that on a previous team. Maybe with NIXON, but not with a team where I’d gone out of my way to form this big ensemble. NIXON is different because it’s just the three of us, and we’re already friends. But we didn’t play together on a regular basis, so it was surprising for me to have that kind of chemistry with all of us together.
The way you’re describing it is just like, “I was just surprised that a good thing happened.”
Yeah, because how often does an idea in your brain get executed and you feel like it’s exactly as you saw it happening in your head. So it was surprising. But in a good way.
I don’t know if you were joking or serious: were you wearing khakis for real when you first started in improv?
I was. When I first started, I was trying to figure out how to fit into this community. And everyone was wearing khakis and plaid shirts. So I decided that was what I would wear. That’s not how I comfortably dress, and it’s not how I dress now.
I was dressing differently. And I felt so uncomfortable and was slowly transitioning out of it. Once I saw White Women, I was fully like, “Oh my god. I can wear my shirts.”
Getting into the comedy scene
Improv was officially my first step into the comedy world. My mom wanted me to do Catch a Rising Star when I was 18. But I was so into sports and didn’t have time for that because I was gonna be the next Michael Jordan. Then I tore my ACL the next spring, and was like,”Well, there goes that.
Comedy was just never the most obvious choice for me. But when I was a kid in high school, I would memorize jokes from Comic View to then use to make fun of people at the lunch table. We would all do that.
We’d use jokes. And then we learned to tag jokes with our own little thing based on looking at someone else’s outfit or something. We used to do that all the time. I was so obsessed with it. But I wasn’t allowed to watch Comic View. So I would go to sleep and then wake up and turn the volume really far down and put my ear right to the TV and just listen to the entire episode.
So I’ve always been drawn to comedy, but it just never clicked as something I should be doing. Then I was watching 30 Rock and realized I knew what improv was and who all these people were. And I wondered why I knew all this stuff but wasn’t pursuing it in any way.
So I looked up classes at DC Improv and was going to do their stand-up classes just to find out where the open mics were. All the classes were sold out, but they had improv classes, and I decided to do that. I took Shawn Westfall’s class, and that was the beginning.
I was not sold on Shawn Westfall when I first took his class. Then after class he invited us to one of his shows. And me being me, I was like, “Yeah, let’s see if my money is being spent properly. Take me to this show and I’ll see what you’re doing.” It was a ShawnMikaels show at a bar in Northeast. I was sold as soon as I saw that. I became the model student. I was hanging onto every word Shawn said.
I just keep thinking about you doing these jokes from Comic View, and I feel like that’s a lot like your comedy now. You’re so good at premise pulls. When someone says something from those texts in Lena Dunham shows, you’re so good at being the one to pull that thing and put it in a place in a scene that builds the whole scene and makes it hilarious. So it was funny hearing you say that you would listen to the jokes on Comic View and then find ways to poke people with them. I was like, “That’s Jamal’s comedy.”
I’ve thought about that a lot. All this stuff that had nothing to do with performing is now going back full circle. It’s helped me develop quickly because I’ve been doing it for a while. I just didn’t know what it was called.
Like I didn’t know what “yes, and-ing” was. But when bullies would say stuff to me in high school, like, “You’re fucking stupid,” I’d be like, “You know what, Tom. I wish I could argue with you. But I am fucking stupid.”
I didn’t know what it is called then, but agreeing would get under people’s skin. It would take the fun out of it for them, whereas it added in the fun for me. So I didn’t know what all this stuff was, but it was just my natural inclination to be that way.
So you were bullied?
I was a very small kid in high school, like 5’5″. Then I shot up senior year and no one bullied me anymore. It’s very funny how that works out. As soon as you’re taller than people, they stop bullying you. But I was bullied all the way until I was a senior in high school. Then no one had anything to say to me. I got taller and bigger.
I remember specifically someone bullying me on the bus every day. The buses have that one seat in the back, that long seat. So I would get on the bus first and sit in the long seat. And this guy would come to the bus just as it was about to pull out every day and would walk all the way back to the long seat and say, “You’re in my seat.” And I’d say, “Aw, this is your seat? Someone removed the nametag again.” I would be such a sarcastic little dickhead.
He was like, “Why do we do this every day?” And I’d say, “You’re right. One of us could stop. It could be you. Because I’m just sitting here minding my business.” But one time he physically picked me up, and the bus driver yelled at him. Then I told him when he picked me up, “You made a very big mistake.” Because I knew a lot of the black kids in school. The school only had a certain amount of black kids, and this kid was white. I wasn’t on the team, but I grew up playing football with all of them. So he picked me up and touched me. And all it took was someone else seeing it, and the next day he got jumped. He never bullied me again.
I feel like you were constantly playing with high status and low status. You seemed like you were a low status character, but you were not.
I think I also knew a lot of people in high school, but I wasn’t popular. I wasn’t the cool kid.
Figuring out how to be comfortable
In high school, I was going through a phase of whether or not I was black enough. So I overshot with do rags and the whole nine yards. In my senior year, though, I realized that wasn’t who I was. I grew up in the suburbs. But almost all the way through high school, I was wearing very baggy sweatpants and basketball jerseys with matching hats.
So when you first started doing improv, you changed your style, as well. Is this a theme for you where you kind of take a while to settle?
I think so. I was talking to a coworker recently about what I would change if I could go back in time. And I said I’d go to a different college. Because I followed my best friend to West Virginia University. I would have gone to like GMU or something instead.
So I think I try to find ways to fit in. But I have to remind myself that I don’t have to change to fit in. But I don’t know why I have to keep telling myself this over and over.
When I first started in improv, everyone was wearing khakis and button-downs. I didn’t have any button-down shirts because that’s not how I dress. But I was like, “I guess I have to buy some button-down shirts now.”
I think this is a life thing but also a student thing. You look at the people on stage and what they’re doing. Maybe you like what they’re doing, so you mimic them, either style-wise or play-wise. But then you’re just so boring because you’re just copying someone else. And it seems like when someone really makes it in the community, and I really like seeing them, it’s someone who’s just said, “Screw that. I’m going to be who I was all along.”
The best part of comedy is that truth in it. And bringing your full self is what makes the team dynamic. It makes you a dynamic player, not trying to emulate what you’ve seen.
It also makes you feel more comfortable onstage. I was so uncomfortable because my clothes were so stuffy. It just feels like I’m more confident now because I do feel confident. It helps. Whatever makes you feel confident when you’re wearing it onstage, please wear it.
I think we’re told even in Level 1 to wear very basic clothes that don’t distract. So I think that hits you for a while, to wear very standard clothes. Is anything that distracting? If you’re good enough, people are going to be captivated by who you are and how you’re performing in a natural way.
Seeing a White Women show, their clothes were flashy, and they were wearing stuff like they were just hanging out. And seeing Amy Poehler wear blazers or Nike shoes, I thought, “She’s wearing Nike Dunks. So why can’t I wear them?”
So did you feel that shift after you came back from seeing White Women?
Oh yeah, I immediately felt way more comfortable and way more relaxed. I don’t get nervous before shows, but it was more like there was this other thing that gave me comfort. The shows felt slower because I was so comfortable.
Where were you in your comedy journey at that point?
I think I’d just left Season Six and was just doing NIXON.
That seems like a good team to start to be yourself on. Because you guys are friends, so that seems like a comfortable space.
That’s probably what I needed, too. After coming off the experience of Season Six, I was trying to figure out what was going to flip the situation around and make me love improv again so it didn’t feel like work. And that was NIXON.
Then when Annie Barry came to DC, we immediately messaged her asking her to coach us. It felt so good to get weekly coaching. And everyone on the team is as invested in getting better as I am. So I felt like that was what an improv team should have felt like. It was the best medicine at that point.
I’d wanted to join Season Six to play with Murphy McHugh. There was no one who knew game in the city as well as Murphy. That was my first experience on an ensemble, and it was my second time auditioning for Season Six. Each time I auditioned for an ensemble, it was just to get on Season Six.
So when I did get on, I was amped up and ready to go. But there’s a joke about when the president is sworn in, they take him downstairs to the basement to show him the truth of the country. And that’s what happened when I got on Season Six. Someone pulled back the curtain, and I realized there was some stuff going on behind the scenes I didn’t know about. There were people leaving, people who were on hiatus, people who were not ever going to be there for shows. I didn’t know any of that.
Premise and game in improv
I think I’m just naturally more drawn to game, finding the funny thing and keeping it going in the scene. I also like when you can find that clever, natural way to bring it back so it doesn’t feel forced for anyone. When that happens, it feels so satisfying.
I’ve only taken classes at DC Improv. But when I first started, I would go home and watch UCB shows online. So that’s also probably part of it. I’d only watch those shows, and I wanted to play like that. I didn’t know at the time what it was called. I just knew they played a certain way, and I wanted to try to do it.
That ties in with your premises because UCB is very big on premise into game. I think that’s something that’s gotten kind of a bad rap lately in DC. I don’t know when that happened, but it suddenly became all about organic discovery. It’s a trend right now. Have you noticed it?
I’ve noticed it. I don’t understand why. I don’t understand when people say they don’t like playing game because it seems to be very fun to do on stage. I understand maybe not everyone your team has to play game-based. But to not like playing game at all, it’s like, “You don’t like having fun?”
Something funny will happen, and you’ll just blow it because you’re doing your Shakespearean thing. You didn’t hear the crazy thing that was just said.
So I’ve noticed that’s a trend. But the trends come and go. For a while, monoscene was it a big thing. Everyone was doing a monoscene. I think people were probably trying to emulate ShawnMikaels. For a while, when they were performing regularly, they were the best team in the area. If you wanted to learn at a show, you would go see their show.
This is a slight rant I’m going to give real quick, but I feel like there’s always one team that makes everyone copy them. There are trends in DC. Something happened last year at District Improv Festival, and then Spokanes and Pretty Flowers became a thing. You see one team do it, and then everyone’s doing it. But it’s like, “Hey, DC. We have this beautiful community of very creative people. Can we be the people that start trends?”
Jamal’s advice for comedians
Be yourself. I know that’s very cliche. Do the thing that makes you comfortable and makes you laugh more than the stuff that makes other people comfortable and makes them laugh. Because if you do the first part, then you’ll continue to do this for a long time. If you are just doing it for the people, you’ll be gone, and you won’t have fun.
Thanks for getting wet with Puss and Kooch
Tune in next week for an interview with former DC improviser Jess Lee!
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